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• nukeduken | vor 1053 Tagen, 17 Stunden, 2 Minuten

  I think very interesting times will come up. The times when all these business models have to show up with cash-flows. Imagine facebook decides to charge some 5$ membership fee a month. The threat of the users "then we will all go away" is not really plausible. in my opinion, in the near future lots of good things in the web will cost something. Good Podcasts, good music, good videos and good articles. It will turn out that "financed by advertising" is a weak unstable business modell.

  

  • daddyd | vor 1053 Tagen, 8 Stunden, 27 Minuten

    nope

    If facebook charged I think it would die fairly quickly. It wouldnt be the first time there has been an exodus away from a social networking site.

    And I dont have any problem with paying for stuff, but two things need to happen. I think the App store is a perfect example of the way things could go, BUT there needs to be a better way of tracking micropayments, and the third party bloodsuckers need to get out of thepicture.

  • nukeduken | vor 1053 Tagen, 8 Stunden, 6 Minuten

    If facebook is running out of money it will die even quicker. It offers a good service to people, so why dont charge for it? I would prefer this business modell over one which uses my data for advertising.

    who are these third party bloodsuckers in your opinion?

  • daddyd | vor 1053 Tagen, 2 Stunden, 40 Minuten

    you are right but

    they would charge you AND use your data for advertising. That's the one thing Last.Fm has going for it right now. At least they claim not to be selling your data.

    Of course, just how long they can keep that promise remains to be seen.

• 81eas | vor 1053 Tagen, 18 Stunden, 4 Minuten

  there is a easy to understand wording that subscribes best what they did to #last.fm and it is DISPOSSESSION.

  

• daddyd | vor 1053 Tagen, 22 Stunden, 37 Minuten

  don't sell magazines to readers, they sell readers to advertisers". That's what CBS was buying. The community and the data.

  They could have tried all sorts of ways of monetizing the site, but what they basically sai in their blog is "we can't be bothered to find anything other than advertising and that only for these three countries"

  

  • rotifer | vor 1053 Tagen, 22 Stunden, 31 Minuten

    Point taken. But I'm guessing they might have looked into that before embarking on this pre-programmed PR disaster. What ways of monetizing do you mean? I can't think of any right now, but maybe I'm just unimaginative. For one thing, in its current state of dissolution, the music industry certainly won't be paying last.fm for passing on their user data. Who would?

  • daddyd | vor 1053 Tagen, 22 Stunden, 7 Minuten

    Last.fm could have been the ultimate radio station. they had their own data that could have delivered highly tageted add campaigns, marketing agreements, ticket sales...

    think google of the music media.

    CBS had basically purchased a combination of the global radio network with an endless supply of highly personalized radio stations delivering to each individual they had listening. Sort of funny when you think that CBS was the first company to own a radio station.

    And no, I dont think they would have looked into it. REcent history would suggest no such thing.

  • daddyd | vor 1053 Tagen, 21 Stunden, 49 Minuten

    okay, I know they did most of those things, but what they basically said on ths post was that it works in the states and GB, they would continue to prop of DE (since they have such close ties) and that the rest of the world was just too tough.

    I really dont think they imagined how personal people would take this. And that is what I dont think they looked into. I'm sure they considered other ways of making money.

  • rotifer | vor 1053 Tagen, 20 Stunden,

    Well, let's agree that whatever we think CBS might have expected is pure conjecture on our part. My guess is that they couldn't see the recession coming when they struck the deal, and that all of these marketing data you're talking about are worth a lot less than people imagined, because you can't sell the music in the first place, so why work out who to (not) sell it to?
    Anyway, I still maintain that asking your users for money sounds like a measure of last resort, not a cashing-in wheeze cause you couldn't think of anything else on a Friday night. You don't have to be super-savvy to guess how the freeloading fraternity of web users would react to being asked for money.

• valderama | vor 1053 Tagen, 23 Stunden, 43 Minuten

  in the beginning

  you had to pay for the personal radio stream as well. so, i never saw it as a free service.

  

  • daddyd | vor 1053 Tagen, 21 Stunden, 56 Minuten

    but not for the neighborhood or other peoples, and that is what was interesting for me. So I did.

• antialias | vor 1054 Tagen, 1 Stunde, 9 Minuten

  Well put.

  

• breitchev | vor 1054 Tagen, 1 Stunde, 9 Minuten

  it's not just "hungry little rights agencies" that need to be fed, it's also musicians. and there's a big world between those few cc-bands and the evil major labels. last.fm made a lot of money by giving away music for free (they even gave away good quality mp3s without permission!), but musicians earned something between nothing and 1 cent per stream. so if you as a user have the feeling, that the content you created is now being stolen from you: that's exactly what musicians felt like for years.

  

  • christianlehner | vor 1054 Tagen, 1 Minute

    this is a little bit unfair. at least last.fm pays musicians and developed a model that COULD work in the future (with a lot to improve of course).

    in this sense they don´t hide behind the "we are just the provider" terminology so many other music services do.

  • christianlehner | vor 1053 Tagen, 23 Stunden, 56 Minuten

    and

    what i find interessting is that many last.fm users announced to switch to pirate bay as if this would be a similiar service.

  • yaketiyak | vor 1053 Tagen, 23 Stunden, 50 Minuten

    What does it tell us about the immaculate "user"? ;-)

  • rotifer | vor 1053 Tagen, 22 Stunden, 39 Minuten

    That their love and loyalty is worth less than 3 euros...

  • daddyd | vor 1053 Tagen, 22 Stunden, 20 Minuten

    You know what?

    I don't expect to make any money from my recordings. I never did. I don't expect to earn any money just because I say I am an artist or a musican or anything else.

    I wanted to play, and I wanted my music to be heard. There was a time when people pretty much had to make albums in order to get heard. Most of the pressings would end up getting given away, and selling 100-150 pcs was pretty massive. Hell, selling a few thousand was considered successful.

    I just found out a few months ago that some of my older songs have been dowloaded 54,000 times. That would have never been possible at the time they were made. Cool. But I don't see that as 54,000 lost sales.

    Feeling ripped off by the use of my data is actually more like the bands that are putting stuff up as CC and having fees collected on it. It's not being stolen, but someone else is profiting on it in a way I didn't agree on.

    The musician in me would have agreed to give away my tracks in order to grow...

  • rotifer | vor 1053 Tagen, 19 Stunden, 41 Minuten

    Okay, I'm displaying my soft belly fur here: The musician in me would like to grow, but if he could make a living out of it, he would have a hell of a lot more time and spare cash to write and record all those unwritten, unrecorded songs instead of, however privileged we may be in our profession, write articles about other people's songs.
    There's nothing wrong with wanting a little bit of remuneration for your efforts, in fact it's a measure of social accessibility of an art form, otherwise you're just leaving the field to the trust fund jivers who can afford to show off (as evident already in London and Brooklyn).
    I remember in the old days, about 5 or 6 years ago, people used to say downloaders will seek out your records and buy them, because they like to invest in the music they discover on the web. That didn't quite happen. I know it's hard for artists to face up to this, but what if they really don't give a shit about you or me?

    PS: The weird thing is: People still have to make albums to get heard....

  • rotifer | vor 1053 Tagen, 19 Stunden, 40 Minuten

    PS: The weird thing is: People still have to make albums to get heard. The radio station says: Have you got a record for us to play? You say: Well, I've got songs. They say: What's the release date? The booker says: We need a record to build a tour around. Apart from a few rare exceptions, just being there and playing live still doesn't really count. And where it looks like it does, you'll find out at closer inspection, that somebody has already put a lot of dosh into some serious campaigning and placing the music in adverts and films. Okay, I'll stop my rant. All I'm saying is it's no use pretending the money doesn't matter.

  • yaketiyak | vor 1053 Tagen, 18 Stunden, 25 Minuten

    sir yes sir!

    Monkey DOES matter. But things (and ways to get paid) will change, anyhow, anyway... the pressure's growing steadily... http://groebchen.wordpress.com/

  • yaketiyak | vor 1053 Tagen, 18 Stunden, 24 Minuten

    well, it's a monkey business, but I meant: money DOES matter ;-)

  • daddyd | vor 1053 Tagen, 8 Stunden, 33 Minuten

    You just made my point for me Robert. THe current system is built up around albums, labels, airtime and rackspace.

    But the problem with that model is that you have a massive set of middlemen who actually eat up most of the cash generated and turn the whole business into a speculative one that only actually generates cash for a small percentage of the people involved.

    THe net and digital files should havelaid down a framework to get rid of that, and THAT is what the industry sees as a threat. The death of their business model. LAst.fm could have gotten rid of everything you mentioned, and ALSO been the shop to buy your music from.

    And as far as downloaders and buying, I think you need to check some more recent studies.

  • rotifer | vor 1053 Tagen, 7 Stunden, 18 Minuten

    As far as the absurdity of the old regime goes, I have never disputed that.
    But if last.fm has the makings of being an alternative to that, I still fail to understand why (even though I am with you in deploring the fact that the main territories are treated differently) asking for that subscription fee should be the end of the idea.
    On the contrary, as I pointed out above, paying cash is just about the only way of cutting out a layer of invisible middle men.

• rotifer | vor 1054 Tagen, 1 Stunde, 34 Minuten

  I hate to have to say this, but I don't quite understand your heartbreak.
  It beats me how the celebration of everything that's good about the web always draws the line when it comes to parting with any amount of cash, however tiny.
  To paraphrase the well-trodden cliché: There is no such thing as a free service. You always pay, either through exploitation of your data or exposure to advertising, and to my mind, paying 3 Euros is a comparatively much more honest and politically sound way of charging people.
  I've been to last.fm's London headquarters, I've seen the amount of people who work there, helping to process the input from contributing consumers like you, and all of a sudden those millions from CBS (with strings attached, by the way) didn't seem quite so utopian an amount.
  Anyway, I would have understood the heartbreak at the time the CBS deal was struck: That was the moment where it was decided that from then on this thing was going to have to make a lot of money.
  At the time, Martin Stiksel said they had to go for the big deal because they were under...

  

  • rotifer | vor 1054 Tagen, 1 Stunde, 34 Minuten

    ...At the time, Martin Stiksel said they had to go for the big deal because they were under pressure from imitators. I understand that. Nonetheless it was a sad reason to have to sell yourself to the man, but as far as I recall everybody cheered. However, that's what they did. Here's an idea: Make a petition. Get those 30 million users to put in 7 Euros each and all of them together could buy last.fm off CBS. After that, everyone could still pay 3 Euros subscription a month on condition that last.fm stay independent. Do you think the solidarity among internet users would extend to that tiny sacrifice? Me neither.
    That's the real heartbreak about it.

  • schwedenschwein | vor 1054 Tagen, 46 Minuten

    good point.

  • yaketiyak | vor 1054 Tagen, 18 Minuten

    The bizarre detail is users in USA, GB and Germany don't have to pay. The rest of the world should pay the bill. Strange... Hey, Martin, you're from Schnitzelland!

  • sloppyperfectionist | vor 1054 Tagen, 17 Minuten

    There is no such thing as a free service. You...

    ...always pay

    That's just plain and simple not true.

    And you know that.

    Some things (maybe more than you would suspect) are free. Both free as in gratis and as in open.

  • christianlehner | vor 1054 Tagen, 5 Minuten

    at gröbch ... äh ... yaketiyak: well put - i think this fact will make it hard for those who are not living in the 3g (!?) to accept the new terms. last.fm shouldn´t become a two class network.

  • daddyd | vor 1053 Tagen, 22 Stunden, 47 Minuten

    Robert

    you said it yourself, you always have to pay, it's just that in this case, it's not either data or money, it's both.

    And I was heartbroken about the deal, but why say anything about it until they actually did something ?I took it personal because I was cheering for these guys to make it. I had the feeling they were trying to find a way to do the right thing, and that was cool.

    All I see here is a continuation of the industries attacks on independent venues of distribution. They put a major dent in webradio, MySpace has been screwing over the Indies (since the majors came on board, surprised?) and the general legal situation being fought for across the planet is just going to make it more and more difficult for anyone but the big companies to get their stuff out there.

    And no, indies buying last.fm wouldnt save it, streaming fees would still kill it, and it isn't worth 280million as an enduser platform. It's only worth that as a marketing venue. You should have been in the business long enough to know the old saw "publishers...

  • rotifer | vor 1053 Tagen, 22 Stunden, 41 Minuten

    yak: True. In that sense, I think the Schnitzelländers get the straighter deal :-)
    sloppy: Well, if it's free to the user and not attached to a secondary income source such as ads and data exploitation, then it's not free to the people providing the service. That's self-exploitation. Or narcissism (like a lot of Wikipedia for example). What I'm saying is: It's not free because it shouldn't be. Because people are working hard to provide it, day in day out. Unless the digital generation faces this, we're gonna be stuck in some hypocritical la-la-land while being ripped off behind our backs.

  • rotifer | vor 1053 Tagen, 19 Stunden, 35 Minuten

    daddyd: Shame I couldn't see the end of your post.
    But that's why I came up with my 7 Euro figure, because if 30m users chipped in 7 Euros each and bought last.fm back it wouldn't have to be worth that price anymore and wouldn't have to create all that extra revenue. All it would have to do would be to sustain itself. You could still do that for quite a bit less.
    But of course my point was only rhetorical.

• sloppyperfectionist | vor 1054 Tagen, 3 Stunden, 51 Minuten

  Don't get me wrong, but I can't really see why you're surprised by any development of that kind.

  Participating in whatever social-networking-thing, that is owned by some major business giant, always involves the risk of being kicked in your stomach at some point. Remember: they're not in it for the fun of it. It's there to make money. And OF COURSE they use the input by the users to do so. That's the basic design of it.

  ...and one of the main reasons why I'm not into myspace, facebook, last.fm and so on - you name it. It just sucks.

  

  • daddyd | vor 1054 Tagen, 3 Stunden, 39 Minuten

    I'm not surprised

    I have been expecting this. I'm only surprised at the fact that I was actually bothered by it.

    After all of this time online, it's the first time I really cared.

    And like I said, I KNOW they are in it to make money. duh. It's all about how they choose to make that money, where they decide they are going to monetize it or not.

    Last.fm could of been the google of music marketing. And yes, I mean that in both the best and worst ways.

    But the one thing about google so far, they at least keep their cash cows well fed.

    And the worst thing about losing last.fm is that it DIDN'T just suck. It had some brilliant things that made it truly useful, and it looked like they were going to be able to find a way to balance out the interests of artists, labels, and users.

    But, like I said. I'm not surprised about the outcome, just m emotional response.

• vanxxx | vor 1054 Tagen, 4 Stunden, 43 Minuten

  I never really used the radio

  but I did use the player to promote the music of a friend of mine. we'll have to delete those songs now, because the way their licensing works right now they won't get any money (back when last.fm started paying bands for radioplays the label's lawyers advised against agreeing to their conditions for reasons I cannot recall)